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CMV: Dog shows centered around purebred dogs are inhumane and promote unhealthy breeding of dogs.
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I've recently been reading a little about higher profile dog shows like the Westminster Kennel Club show and others and I am starting to think that they really aren't all that good for dogs. However, first let me state that most of the sources I have seen through my limited google searches seem to have an agenda and aren't really unbiased. Most of the criticism that I have read, and at this point tend to agree with says that dog shows promote unhealthy breeding by not allowing for genetic variation as well as promoting the over breeding of some of the more popular species. When I was reading about these shows I also had the thought that the dogs really might not be happy. As silly as this sounds, it just seems like these dogs are being exploited and not being allowed to be socialized or act like normal dogs. Again I have no experience with dog shows, and I have only ever owned mutts so I could very well be dead wrong.
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Top Comment: The purpose of a conformation show (the type of show where dogs trot around rings and are gone over by judges, so named because they test how closely each dog conforms to its written breed standard) is simple: TO EVALUATE BREEDING STOCK. Say I am a breeder and have a female dog I am interested in breeding. I look at pictures and videos of male dogs I might use in the breeding, I examine their pedigrees and figure out how their ancestry might interact with my girl's ancestry. I try to select a male dog that might bring characteristics that my female is weak on (say, a better rear end than I currently have in my line). I check that the owners of the males I'm interested in have done all the health testing that our breed club requires. For our breed, this includes hip evaluations (for dysplasia) and eye exams (for progressive retinal atrophy). Our own dogs also have elbows tested, though our breed club does not require this. Now I've narrowed it down to a few male dogs I might want to use. Since our breed is rare, and we're the only active breeder in our area, the dog probably lives on the other side of the country, or even on another continent entirely, and we will probably be doing artificial insemination. Before I go to the expense and the trouble, I want to have some assurance that the male dogs I'm considering are actually good examples of the breed. Their breeder isn't objective enough, and I'm not either, because I have a vested interest in the breeding and just gone through a process of trying to find dogs I'd like to breed to, in which I looked primarily at the dogs' good points! Pictures and videos help, but they can also be deceptive. What I need is the opinion of someone, or better yet several someones, who has a critical, practiced eye for the breed. That is what a conformation championship is for. A champion dog has been judged by disinterested but knowledgeable third parties on a number of occasions and, furthermore, has been judged superior to a certain number of other specimens of the same breed on those occasions. So it is a reasonably objective indicator of merit, and I can confidently choose a champion to breed to without worrying that the breeder has hidden something. It is really hard to hide serious defects from an experienced judge, and virtually impossible to repeatedly hide flaws from several different judges! In fact, most serious breeders use only champion stud dogs, and will not breed a female they own if it has not attained championship. (Although even the best breeders will sometimes make exceptions.) Admittedly, in some breeds there are problems with dogs bred to look pretty in the show ring but with serious deficits in performing their original function, and with judges who perpetuate that by giving those dogs wins. This is something the buyer should be aware of and investigate carefully when choosing a breed and breeder. As for not allowing genetic variation: that's true, and necessary. To have distinct breeds—lines of dogs that look similarly and behave similarly—genetic variation must be limited. If there is too much genetic variation, you don't have consistency and you don't have a breed! When a breed is recognized by a national kennel club such as the AKC, a list of all recognized dogs of the breed (called a "stud book") is registered, and future dogs will be considered of that breed only if they are descendants of those dogs. All domesticated animals that consist of recognized breeds have gone through this process, and all animals of a given breed are related to some extent (which some people, usually those who don't understand breeding, are quick to call "inbred"). In truth, a kennel club won't recognize a breed that doesn't have enough individuals extant to provide a healthy gene pool for breeding purposes. For breeders, the trick, of course, is making breedings that are close enough to ensure and reinforce the "breed type" (the consistency I spoke of) while not breeding so closely that health problems arise. A common practice is do an outcross (a breeding of two unrelated lines) to bring in characteristics that you want in your line, and then follow that up with a couple of generations of close breeding (usually not direct inbreeding, but perhaps cousins or similar distance) to reinforce the consistency of these new traits. Tools such as the "inbreeding coefficient" (which can be calculated from the pedigree of a proposed breeding) are used to help minimize the risks of such breeding. As to how the dogs are treated, this does vary a lot among breeders. We know a breeder in Ireland who treats his dogs more or less like livestock. He's a sheep farmer, and his breed originated to do work on a farm, and they still do on his; he treats them accordingly. They live in outdoor kennels and he socializes them exactly as much as necessary to make them safe to handle and able to do the work he needs them to do. (A century or two ago, this was the way nearly all dogs were treated, so this approach is very old-fashioned and he's probably one of the last who raises his dogs that way.) His dogs are really nice examples of the breed, however, and the foundation of the breed in the US. On the other end of the spectrum, my wife and I breed with a high consideration for temperament, and we socialize our puppies extensively because we know almost all of them will be kept as companions. We even do an enrichment curriculum starting before their eyes and ears are open to jump-start their neural development. We start crate-training and housetraining before they leave the nest. Our own dogs (all five of them) sleep in our bed with us and, when not being shown, live normal doggy lives. Nobody who has met them has any doubt that they are happy. Other breeders are somewhere in the middle of this spectrum. We met one breeder/trainer who suggested that show dogs should be discouraged from running in one direction around the yard lest they become too strong on one side, and that affect their gait in the show ring! We think that is bonkers. The standards of breeders do vary among breeds. We are fortunate because our breed is obscure, and nearly all of the people who breed them care deeply about the breed and are dedicated to maintaining both "breed type" (the defining characteristics of the breed) and health. In more popular breeds, many people breed just because they happen to have a male and female and know they can sell the puppies, without doing the necessary health testing, without much consideration for the pedigrees of the parents, or even without a particular goal in mind or any intention for breed improvement. What it all comes down to is: Breeds are a good thing, generally speaking. They allow you to know the characteristics of the dog you'll be getting, both physically and temperament-wise, within a relatively narrow range. People who carefully choose breeds that fit their lifestyle tend to be happier with their dogs. I argue that it is good to be able to make that choice. Having access to a variety of breeds was vital when dogs had to "earn their keep" by doing work, but it remains important today! You want a companion you can love to live with. (Don't get me wrong, mutts can be awesome too! If it makes you happier to adopt one of those, then do that! Especially adults, since you can judge their personalities better and because they are harder to place.) Conformation shows are useful for breeders because they help us find quality dogs for use in breeding more easily, especially in situations where we might not be able to actually put our hands on the dog ourselves because they live so far away. Even when we have met the dog, it is good to have our impressions backed up by judges. For other people, dog shows can be fun to watch, but they (like the kennel clubs that sponsor them) exist primarily for breeders. If you get a purebred dog, choose your breed and your breeder carefully. Learn about the typical temperament of the breed and their grooming and exercise needs. Learn about your breeders! The fact that puppies are AKC registered just means their parents were AKC registered and of the same breed, it makes no guarantees about the health of the dog or any of its other characteristics. Your breeder should show their dogs (hopefully you now understand why) and breed only champions to champions except in highly unusual circumstances. Generally they should not be breeding dogs they own to each other; that indicates that they are not looking for the best possible breeding, not particularly interested in improving the breed, etc. Ask the national breed club (every breed has one) for information about health problems in the breed and make sure your breeder addresses those. Ask about how they raise their puppies. All these things will affect the puppy. Meet at least one of the parents (typically the mom, the father is probably owned by someone else). Ask to see the contract of sale; ideally, for "show quality" dogs, the breeder should PROHIBIT you from breeding without finishing the dog's championship and health testing (and/or without the breeder's permission). Even if you don't intend to show or breed your puppy (in which case your breeder will sell you a "pet quality" puppy) this is a strong indication about how the breeder feels about mentoring buyers in ethical breeding practices. (Note: If you buy a female show-quality puppy, the breeder should be extra attentive to you because you are potentially a breeder yourself.) Anyway... those of us in the hobby of dog breeding can be quite passionate. Sorry for the wall of text. Bottom line is, dog shows are breeding tools, one of many as it happens, and as long as there are breeds of dogs and people working to perpetuate and improve them, dog shows will be useful to them. Edit: Clean up typos and style.
What is the appeal of dog shows?
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Like the whole idea of having a dog that is like the perfect standard for its breed and stuff. I guess it’s for breeding but like, what’s the point in the end?
Looking for a genuine, non-condescending answer.
Edit: this question isn’t meant to sound like I’m making a statement or judging I’m just genuinely wondering
Top Comment: If you don't love dogs it has no appeal. If you're a dog lover like me it does have a lot of appeal because you enjoy seeing dogs and the various breeds. It's not much different from car shows and boat shows where car lovers and boat lovers enjoy seeing the different cars and boats.
Dog shows are stupid
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There’s a dog show airing on NBC right now called the “Beverly Hills Dog Show”
Dog breeders must be the biggest dog nutters on the planet. All those shitbeasts look ugly and nasty to me. What’s so special about them? They’re just fucking disgusting and ugly looking dogs!
I can just smell that nasty wet dog smell coming through my TV and I’m getting nauseated watching it. Time to change the channel!
Top Comment:
I get that. Dog shows dont interest me either. My friend showed me a few videos on YouTube and I just found them a bore to watch (then again, I was not the target audience to begin with). The overwhelming amount of dog shows are also the main reason why I don't watch Animal Planet anymore. "Puppy Bowl", "Pitbulls and Parolees". "Pit Boss", "Groomer Has It".
No Thanks
Dog Shows
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I highly suggest groomers attend at least a couple of dogs shows so they can see what the breeds should look like. For instance Cockers & Schnauzers so you can see exactly how far to take the pattern and especially how the head is groomed. Bring a camera and take pictures. Much better to see in person rather than a book.
Don’t be afraid to use a little hairspray. Spray it on your comb to comb Schnauzers eyebrows to get a perfect angle and especially poodle topknots so you can get them rounded.
A little spray will make your job easier and your dogs look better.
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I agree every groomer should definitely know their breed standard cuts but, every line is gonna be different when your dealing with pets. Sometimes it’s gotta be tweaked a little to accommodate different kinds of clients.
ELI5:Dog Shows
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OK, I'm watching Westminster Dog Show right now, and I can't seems to understand the rhyme or reason behind This dog is best in breed, This dog is best in group, or This dog is best in show.
Sure, I can understand when the dog is stood up and examined by the judge, poked and prodded and such, with the teeth examined and all. But what about the walking? What are the judges looking for when they walk the dog around? Is it good if the dog keeps it's head up? What about panting? What about head down? Should the tail be wagging? What should the dog be doing? What shouldn't it be doing?
Aside from the obvious, that is. I can probably guess that taking a shit on the green carpet's a black (brown) mark. It'd be great if there were a former dog judge or trainer who could chime in here...
Top Comment:
They judge each breed based on a predetermined set of criteria. There's characteristics for each breed that judges look for, and judge a dog against those. That's the breed standard.
What they look for in a German Shepherd, a Pekingese, and a Border Collie are all going to be different. The posture, the attitude, the energy level, all depend on the breed.
So, they aren't judging the dogs against each other, but which dog comes closest to the breed standard. As for the walking aroung, what they look for in each dog differs. Some breeds have a standard that dictates a cheekiness, and cute little bouncy walk, others are supposed to move forward with purpose and efficiency. That's part of the whole walking around thing. It also provides a better opportunity to see the dog from both sides, make sure it has straight legs, is sound, and is listening to the handler.
Basically, the dog should be obedient to the handler, so they can effectively show the animal to the judge. They should be fairly still, focused, and ok with the judge touching them, etc.
I haven't shown dogs before, but I've shown other animals and like watching dog shows, so if anybody has any corrections/input, please don't hold back.
[Discussion] I attended a dog show for the first time! Dog show etiquette?
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This past weekend I went to the National Dog Show just outside of Philadelphia, PA. I had SUCH A GOOD TIME! But I was completely overwhelmed. While I was ecstatic to see some breeds that I would have never ever gotten to meet before, I was also totally unprepared!
It was very crowded and a HUGE event. I did expect that since it is literally airing on tv next week. However, I found myself totally speechless when it came to talking to the actual people! I did manage to chat a little bit with some people involved with breeds I like but I felt like a peasant talking to royalty lol. A lot of people were busy/talking every time I walked by and it felt so trivial to interrupt them and say 'hey can I pet your dog??' and I didn't want to be rude because I saw a LOT of rude behavior from the general public in terms of just putting their hands all over the dogs without asking.
I kept getting hung up on what to ask next!!!!! What am I supposed to be asking??? Its hard to just jump right into the conversation when I've done so much homework and I've stalked breeders online. Like, I probably knew way too much about one breeder because they are really active on FB and they dont even know who I am! It is like mild celeb status in my mind haha.
The other thing is.... I am mostly interested in a working dog, not a show-only dog. How do I bring that up without seeming like a snob?? Sure, conformation is cool and all but I want to do agility and dock diving and other dog sports. I found that when I could somehow get the conversation there, I had much more to talk about with owners/handlers. Like one breed had a list of titles and what they stood for and pics of the dog doing the sport. It was easy to strike up a conversation with them. But other people, how would I know unless I asked but is it rude to be like 'do you do anything else besides showing'? I would love if the next dog I got came from a breeder that did both. It seems like a lot of working lines avoid showing?
TLDR; What is some dog show etiquette that a first time wannabe owner should know?
Top Comment: So first of all welcome to the show world! Dog shows can be very hectic, crowded and confusing, especially for beginners. Breeders are people too and as people you will get along better with some than with others. Sometimes a breeder can have a bad day and not seem friendly even though they usually are, some breeders will be super busy preparing their dogs and not have time to chat, some are shy people in general and some are just jerks, sometimes you will be there at a bad time. The best way to approach would be with a simple "Hey I really like your dogs and I'm interested in your breed, do you have time to chat now or can I come back later?" Unless they are jerks or you caught them in a really bad time I've never seen a breeder take offence to such an introduction no matter how busy they seemed. No good breeder would take offence with someone asking about their dogs' working ability. I know some breeders that don't personally work their dogs besides shows and obedience but their puppies have gone to do amazing things in other sports and they are happy to talk about them! Maybe better than a "do you do anything else besides showing?" would be a "did any of the dogs you bred go on to excel in any kind of work or dog sports?". This will get them talking about their own dogs or dogs from their lines that do sports or work, or you'll get a negative answer which is also fine. Even if the breeder you are talking to doesn't produce a good temperament for working they definitely know someone who does and could direct you in the right direction, so it's never a bad thing to ask. Just like how some show people can be very snobby about their show dogs the same can be said for working people who diss shows completely. In some breeds the working line dogs just wouldn't place well in the show ring so they don't do it. But that doesn't mean that some working and some show line breeders aren't connected, and that none of the show line dogs can't work.
[Discussion] Why don't you show your dog?
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One of the first things I noticed about dog shows, aside from being in awe at how an expo center full of dogs could be so quiet, was how old everyone was. Aside from a few junior handlers, 90% of people were 50+ with a large portion 70+ so what gives? Why are more young people not interested in showing? Is it an issue of not having a purebred/intact dog? Disapproval of the AKC’s politics/policies? Lack of money? Lack of time? Lack of accessibility? Lack of interest? What, if anything, could the AKC/breed clubs do to interest you in showing your dog? (Altered dog classes? Mixed breed "Showmanship" classes? etc.)
Top Comment: Showing = time and money 60+ means they are probably in retirement and have both of those. says the person with no experience